Curse

reaper with no name · Nov 22, 2010, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Reaper With No Name: "I'm casting Flesh of My Flesh on Dervish Update!"

Someone had to do it.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t10458390.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Scheduled (hopefully) before Christmas
Dervish changes

Mysticism buff (won't give specifics, but it's nice)
Avatars buffed
AoHM buff
Many enchantments changed to "Flash Enchantments". The exact definition I will not provide.
Many, many changes to Dervish enchants
Some attack skills given adrenaline cost
Some attack skills given more utility
Possibly change to attack speed and crit chance of scythes

Again, a reminder, none or all of this could happen. This is based on rumors and things that have been posted, hosted, or passed around. It could be widely inaccurate or spot-on. Do not take these as fact or as a leak. They are neither.

Speculation time.

I'm expecting "Flash Enchantments" to be enchantments with no cast time and probably no aftercast delay (given that so many dervish enchantments already have 1/4 cast time, the 3/4 aftercast delay matters much more), possibly with the same removal mechanic as Sand Shards (gets stripped on next attack skill rather than requiring a specific type of skill to remove).

"Utility" sounds to me like a code word for "interrupts, knockdowns, unblockability, and conditions".

When it comes to conditions, dervishes already have access to deep wound, bleeding, cripple, blindness (one way lasts only a short time, and the other way is elite), burning, and weakness. The main conditions they lack are poison (not very dervish-like), disease (only necros get that), cracked armor (Anet historically has not been fond of letting melee characters have that without using a secondary profession), and daze (now we're talking). So with the exception of cracked armor, more blindness (not necessarily a good thing), and daze, there isn't much potential there in my personal opinion.

However, there is a lot of potential for the dervish when it comes to knockdowns (anything with "sweep" in the name could easily be made into a knockdown) and interrupts (I'm pretty sure the class doesn't even have an interrupt).

When it comes to unblockability, the dervish is pretty much limited to Irresistible Sweep and Guiding Hands, but I'm not even sure whether or not more unblockability for the dervish would be a good thing, given the damage potential of the scythe (but who knows? they might be changing that, too).

Whenever I think of potential avatar buffs, I end up scratching my head. With the exception of party wide buffs, I have a hard time thinking of ways to buff the avatars that would make them worth using in this meta (even if they did make them maintainable without Eternal Aura).

Nevertheless, these are some possibilities I think Anet might try:
AoB: More armor? Blocking? Armor Penetration? Knockdowns? IAS?
AoG: More lifesteal? Full unblockability (after all, Aegis has changed)? More damage against summons? Shortened condition/hex durations?
AoM: Health regen? More hp?
AoD: hex immunity? Protective Spirit-like effect on self?
AoL: Interrupts? Energy gain/steal on attacks? Lower skill costs? More energy?

Mysticism will probably, at the very least, give more energy than it does now (maybe even with some additional effect beyond that), but it will probably also be changed to only give energy for flash enchantments.

I'm expecting Zealous Vow to get the same nerf it did by accident in the last update (before they fixed it). Wounding Strike will be either untouched or nerfed. Vow of Strength will either be reverted, kept the same, or become unconditional.

Some problems that I could see arising:
1) PvP imbalances. If dervishes do get knockdowns and interrupts (and it's done incorrectly), we could end up with a highly damaging, highly disruptive, and slightly squishier version of the warrior.
2) The buffs may not be enough to give the dervish the niche in PvE it so desperately needs. Assassins have a stranglehold on tanking (SF) and single target melee (daggers). Warriors have a strangehold on disruptive melee (hammers), defensive support melee (DS+SY, among others), and buffed melee AoE (100B+WA). Currently, the warrior and assassin jointly own what lies between single target melee and buffed melee AoE (Critscythe, Enduring Scythe). So where will the dervish fit in? Will it take one of these roles away from the others? Will it create a new one altogether (offensive support melee? disruptive AoE melee? buffed single target melee)? Or will it end up in the same boat it's in now, albeit more powerful than before? That last one would in some ways be even worse than the status quo, because the problem of the dervish is not its absolute power, but its power relative to the competition. Changing the former but not the latter would just be power creep for the sake of power creep.
3) Bar decompression. One of the many weaknesses of enchantment juggling (besides the horrible damage of enchantments and the loss of dps from stopping to cast the enchantments) is the need for more skill slots to achieve the same effect. With AoHM, Asuran Scan, and IAS necessary staples, that leaves only 5 skill slots (one of which will be the elite and the other possibly the third PvE skill). Not only would this make the above issue more likely, but it would also cut down on the potential build diversity.

Now, the rest of you, speculate! Or Dhuum will reap you!

Xenomortis · Nov 23, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

If I were to speculate on ANets actions:

Mass avatar buff. Really not sure what they'd do, but I don't think it's a good idea. Passive, mindless self-buffs don't really make the game interesting or promote good active play. I'm guessing it's coming though.

I'd put good money on a Mysticism change, but I doubt anyone would accept the bet - I'd expect it to provide some sort of benefit either to having enchantments or a significant boost when they end.

Less sure on a ZV change. I'd say it needs nerfing, provided they cough up something suitable as an alternative (that isn't an Avatar please) but I doubt they'd do it.

I can't see why they'd touch Wounding Strike apart from possible PvP reasons if they really throw out something to make Dervs wanted in PvP - the skill certainly isn't that great in PvE. Reaper's Sweep I think is preferable and ok as is.
I think it's a shame though, that there are only two elites in Scythe Mastery; both DW applicators although one is much more spike oriented. There's nothing they can do about that now, but I think that's the biggest lack of depth the line suffers from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

"Utility" sounds to me like a code word for "interrupts, knockdowns, unblockability, and conditions".

Stance Removal - currently both the Derv and Ranger are the physicals without any stance removal and the Derv the only melee prof.
This would become a more important consideration should they go through with adrenal scythe attacks since Wild Blow would be less viable.

Unblockable skills also very unwieldy on a Scythe but I think that's ok. Guiding Hands is very preemptive and so can't be used when you need it and Irresistible Sweep strips an enchantment. I semi-expect a flash enchantment that makes your next attack unblockable.

But really though, without information I cannot accurately guess (or even vaguely suggest) what ANet will do (if anything). Nothing is beyond their balance techniques of late.
I can say what I think would be bad and what I think would be good - but I've done that a lot already.

NerfHerder · Nov 24, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Judging by the Mesmer update, I think Anet will try to carve a niche for the Dervish. Maybe in the form of these "Flash Enchantments" and AoE damage.

Mysticism Buff:

Judging by what is predicted and again the Mesmer update, Mysticism may reduce recharge of Dervish Enchantments or have some sort of benefit that coincides with the rest of the buff. And something that helps with energy management.

Zealous Vow:

Changed to what we saw in the accidental leak. Energy gain would be something like 3...3...4. Which would not be sufficient to spam attack skills and maintain enchantments. Only reason I could think to do this would be to discourage Dervishes from being attack skill spammers. If this happens then the update better be good. Because this is the only thing Dervishes have going for them. On the bright side, this may be a good thing, as the new niche they are creating for the Dervish is better.

Aura of Holy Might:

Tied to Mysticism and Holy damage conversion removed. Not only because I think this is what should be done, but because its the right thing to do. It would take AoHM away from Sins and Wars. This alone would be considered a Buff. Because as we all know, two nerfs make a buff. The initial damage dealt will still do Holy damage and may be increased, this would keep the Holy theme around. Recharge may be decreased.

Avatars

There is a good chance they become maintainable. Eternal Aura would then be changed to something useful. Drop out of combat for almost 5 seconds to recast, all the while risking enchantment removal and interrupt? pff. The rest of the buff could come from simple number increases, but I'm hoping they come in the form of reworks that resemble the god they are associated with. In order for any of them to be useful they will need to provide increased DPS or one hell of a good utility.

My wishlist/partial predictions:

AoB: Armor Penetration and IAS. Keep the +40 AR. Holy damage removed.

AoD: Hard to say. Some sort of AoE heal/hex/condition removal/support buff? If one condition removal was added to the health gain and hex removal, and it applied to a target ally if a skill was cast on them instead. The Dervish could substitute for a decent healer. However thats not very likely. It will probably still be useless in most situations. I hope I eat my words.

AoG: Life steal would need to be more than doubled to be worth while. Maybe an increase in Cold damage added to attack skills in addition to the lifesteal.

AoL: Skill Split. In PvE if your wielding a Scythe your attack skills interrupt and you gain +2 energy regen or energy on successful hit/while activing a skill. Something like Dwarven Battle Stance.

AoM:Energy cost reduced. Maybe add some sort of Earth Damage addition.

New skill Avatar of Kormir. Your attacks have 90% chance to miss because your blind!

Vow of Strength could be reverted and tied to Mysticism. On that note, there are many Dervish Elites that could use some love. Keeping the powerful ones either in Mysticism or tied to it will be key to keeping it balanced.

Heart of Fury deserves a buff. Enchantment stripping is everywhere nowadays. So I dont think its too much to ask for a maintainable non elite IAS.

As for more utility for derv attack skills, I think conditions will be increased, and possibly stance removal, KDs, and interrupts added. Like everyone else said.

Wounding Strike will probably stay the same. Its still a very good pressure skill. And if the right non elite skills are buffed, may see more use.

I'm a little weary hearing about adrenaline costs for attack skills. Endgame and WiK type mobs seem to always have some sort of adrenaline denial(block, blind, soothing etc) and it just feels wierd for a Derv. Alot of it will depend on cost and recharge of the adrenaline skill.

Xenomortis · Nov 24, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Zealous Vow:

Changed to what we saw in the accidental leak. Energy gain would be something like 3...3...4. Which would not be sufficient to spam attack skills and maintain enchantments. Only reason I could think to do this would be to discourage Dervishes from being attack skill spammers. If this happens then the update better be good. Because this is the only thing Dervishes have going for them. On the bright side, this may be a good thing, as the new niche they are creating for the Dervish is better.

This wouldn't be that bad. 3 energy is fine enough if you can hit more than one target, except it's then massively inferior to Warrior's Endurance - both skills need to go but Dervs need a substitute first.
4 Energy per hit is plenty - only difference is that you need to throw in the odd auto-attack to make up the difference when hitting single targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Vow of Strength could be reverted and tied to Mysticism. On that note, there are many Dervish Elites that could use some love. Keeping the powerful ones either in Mysticism or tied to it will be key to keeping it balanced.

I'm really not sure on this skill. I've been wanting to toy around with it in our guild teams but we've never got round to it - for good performance it would require A/Ds since Dervs can't keep up the energy costs without Zealous Vow. Teams build to use this skill could be very powerful - the potential numbers are huge but it's got a nasty condition attached.
If A.Net don't touch an Assassin's ability to use a Scythe, I say keep this skill as is. If they make Derv energy management able to keep up without using ZV, then this skill may be worth looking at.

Reversion to only being able to auto-attack would be silly - it wouldn't be worth anything then.

dasmitchies · Dec 03, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Anet will never release their changes. Its vapory goodness.

Franksalot · Dec 07, 2010, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

for good performance it would require A/Ds since Dervs can't keep up the energy costs without Zealous Vow.

Try attackers insight + lyssa's assault you'll never have energy problems, there are many options for people who aren't set on simply playing generic pvx attack spammers. After all thats the point of the skill pool to play how you want not be stuck with the same preset build.

Xenomortis · Dec 07, 2010, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I assure you that won't perform as well.
If performance isn't your main concern then that's fine, but I'm not going to go to the effort of constructing a specific team setup if I'm not going to squeeze as much out of it as possible.

reaper with no name · Dec 07, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franksalot

Try attackers insight + lyssa's assault you'll never have energy problems, there are many options for people who aren't set on simply playing generic pvx attack spammers. After all thats the point of the skill pool to play how you want not be stuck with the same preset build.

Does AI+LA provide 3 energy per second, every second? No? Well, that's what you need in order to pump out the kind of damage that zealous vow builds can. And no other scythe build for the dervish comes close to the damage output of spamming attack skills.

Random Namos · Dec 08, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Does AI+LA provide 3 energy per second, every second? No? Well, that's what you need in order to pump out the kind of damage that zealous vow builds can. And no other scythe build for the dervish comes close to the damage output of spamming attack skills.

Well, I tried to make a build with AI + LA, pumps out the same damage as the Zealous Vow Dervish, if not more..

I came up with this:

Scythe Mastery = 11+1+1
Wind Prayers = 5
Tactics = 12

Code = OgGjkuqVFTvlCYMXNXjekbiauF

Skills :
1. Asuran Scan
2. Lyssa's Assault
3. Mystic Sweep
4. Eremite's Attack
5. Aura of Holy Might (Luxon)
6. Attacker's Insight
7. Soldier's Stance
8. "Fear Me!"

With 5 in Wind Prayers Lyssa's Assault is a free attack, and with 13 Scythe Mastery it will generate +11energy
Use it with a Zealous scythe, and lets say you hit 3 foes, you'll gain 14 energy every 15 seconds.
While AI is recharging, Lyssa's Assault is still a free skill because of the 11 energy regain.

Soldier's Stance + ''Fear Me!'' will provide 75% block, +25% critical hit and 33% faster attacking.

EDIT:

Cuilan · Dec 08, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I guess that's not too bad. Slower recharging skills in exchange for a much higher crit chance and an attack speed buff that should stay up for quite a bit. I think you might be missing attribute points though?

FoxBat · Dec 08, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17

3+1 wind gets you the 2 proc breakpoint, I would do that with 12 scythe for sure.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 08, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

'SY!' is also missing on that bar

Cuilan · Dec 08, 2010, 09:21 PM // 21:21

SY isn't missing from that bar, the bar is too tight for it to fit in.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 08, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Exactly my point ^^ It's a downside of the bar, just like for Scythe sins.

Xenomortis · Dec 09, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Namos

Well, I tried to make a build with AI + LA, pumps out the same damage as the Zealous Vow Dervish, if not more..

I came up with this:

Scythe Mastery = 11+1+1
Wind Prayers = 5
Tactics = 12

Code = OgGjkuqVFTvlCYMXNXjekbiauF

Skills :
1. Asuran Scan
2. Lyssa's Assault
3. Mystic Sweep
4. Eremite's Attack
5. Aura of Holy Might (Luxon)
6. Attacker's Insight
7. Soldier's Stance
8. "Fear Me!"

...

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1710/screen29f.png

The variance in results between DPS tests with Scythes is quite high, even when you use the full 180 seconds on the Master of Damage.
Your Allegiance and Asura Rank have a large effect on the results as well.

With that in mind:

12+1+1 Scythe Mastery
12+1 Wind Prayers
Rank 3 Asuran (really low)
Rank 8 Kurzick

Mystic Sweep
Eremite's Attack
Protector's Strike
Asuran Scan
Zealous Vow
Aura of Holy Might
Frenzy
Save Yourselves

Vampiric Scythe of Enchanting
Customised with 15^50

Before any comparison can be done between the two results, you need to state your allegiance and asura ranks and confirm the weapon mods.
A sensible comparison can only be drawn though when all these things are equal (although not necessarily the vamp mod).

Edit:
Had I slotted BuH over SY in my build I would have easily outdone you in DPS, but I don't often take BuH.

Bandwagon · Dec 09, 2010, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Exactly my point ^^ It's a downside of the bar, just like for Scythe sins.

But Scythe Sins outperform non-SY! Dervs in every single way. ^^

Random Namos · Dec 09, 2010, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Had I slotted BuH over SY in my build I would have easily outdone you in DPS, but I don't often take BuH.

If i took BuH instead of ''Fear Me!'', i would still do the same damage as you, with 33% Attack buff and 75% block.

I dont need frenzy to double my incoming damage, But havent got ''SY!''
And that build I came up with was just to forget about Zealous Vow for more build variation..

Last 2 skills can be changed to whatever and still can max out that attribute

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

'SY!' is also missing on that bar

Ya mean every Dervish bar needs ''SY!'' or it sucks?

Haggis of Doom · Dec 09, 2010, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Namos

Ya mean every Dervish bar needs ''SY!'' or it sucks?

I mean it's a downside of the bar, not that it sucks -.-

If you bothered to read 2 posts down that one you wouldn't've asked.

Xenomortis · Dec 09, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Namos

If i took BuH instead of ''Fear Me!'', i would still do the same damage as you, with 33% Attack buff and 75% block.

But you would suffer a DPS drop from losing Fear Me. You'd have to work out which is more valuable.

Random Namos · Dec 09, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

I mean it's a downside of the bar, not that it sucks -.-

If you bothered to read 2 posts down that one you wouldn't've asked.

True, my bad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

But you would suffer a DPS drop from losing Fear Me. You'd have to work out which is more valuable.

"Fear Me!" is maintainable, while BUH only is when at least 2man are under 50%
So, only if BUH would do ALOT more damage, id use that over "Fear Me!"
If it does just slightly more damage, Then I would still use "Fear Me!" because BUH's downtime